My concern about the condor question was that the sample size is so small that it is difficult, if not impossible, to draw any definite conclusion. I also want to know (1)what part of a condor’s diet consists of shot gut piles, (2) how much lead is in a typical gutpile, and (3) how much of this has to be consumed by a condor in order for it to be affected. If FGC does not have the answers to these quetions then I think any regulations concerning lead ammunition is premature. They don’t seem to want to do the hard research that is necesary when pontificating is so much easier.

What you’re asking really drives to one of the key issues around this whole lead ban, and the fact is that nobody really knows the answer. Traditionally, the condor fed on dead megafauna, large animals such as elk, whales, sea lions, and deer. Of course, elk were almost eradicated from the state, and due to coastal development, dead sea mammals are not allowed to lay around and “stink up” the beach.

The American Ornithologists’ Union released a report on the condor suggesting that sport hunters are a necessary part of the equation for the survival of condors in the wild, particularly if the plan is to stop feeding them at feed platforms. The implication is that they must find a lot of food from hunters’ leavings.

You have to keep in mind that in CA the hunting seasons never end. Folks are in the field year-round out here, shooting deer in season, but hunting pigs all year long. Ranchers and farmers are killing them on depredation permits as well. Varmint shooters are also at it all year long, although there’s still a big question about just how many varmint carcasses the condors actually eat.

As far as ammo prices, the components for bullets have all escalated significantly. Copper, brass, and lead costs are high, and availability is limited, which is not a good sign for the budget-conscious hunter right now. I think the increase in the cost of non-lead ammo has been a little more moderate because the industry is starting to ramp up production, but it is still increasing.

Thanks for dropping by, Moose. I’ve been watching your coverage of the NC WRC meetings back home. Looks like “interesting times” for everyone these days.

Non lead rifle ammo has that seen the same sharp increase regular ammo has over the past 10 months or so? Rifle ammo here is risen 30 to 40% in cost and availability can be difficult. I was walking through Wally World the other day and saw they had 3 boxes of 243 ammo so I bought with taxes and all it was almost $20 dollars a box last year it was $14 a box. If it has then it will make it harder for some to keep their shooting skills up.

Lastly I think that is great CA is putting the meetings on line. I wish NC would do that as well.

The ESA protections for the condor are certainly the grounds on which the lawsuit against the State was founded. If it can be proven that hunters’ ammunition is a true threat to the birds’ survival, then the “necessity” is proven and that’s all that’s required. (Keep in mind that I DO believe there’s a plausible connection, by the way… I’m not personally disputing it.)

Mr. Brady’s argument is that such a connection has not been proven, and that the State acted inappropriately in setting the initial ban (that ban was set in place by the legislature, not the FGC, by the way). Expanding the ban to small game and/or upland game makes that even worse, especially given that there’s no real evidence that small game (or small varmints) are typically eaten by condors. With the exception of an anecdotal reference, there’s no record that condors eat small game carcasses in the wild. Traditionally they feed on megafauna carcasses, although of course they’d be opportunistic. But they’d have to beat the ravens, crows, and four-legged scavengers (including other ground squirrels) to the feast… which isn’t particularly likely.

The connection to ground squirrels and lead toxicity in condors is purely hypothetical. That the rimfire ammunition usually used to shoot them is largely unavailable in non-lead materials is a fact. Unfortunately, the other fact is that the lead ban already applies to varmints, so they’re really not part of the picture right now. As Holly has pointed out several times, once that train leaves the station, it’s highly unlikely that we’ll see it called back.

All that said, I totally agree that I’d like to see the NRA and other involved organizations publicly involved in funding and carrying out research to prove or disprove the lead ammo risk. I’ve mentioned this before, of course. I know that the NRA and some others are involved in collecting their own data and research, but there’s an appearance of false motives, especially given the propagandistic slant of their public relations documents (press releases, news “blasts”, “action alerts”, etc.).

“Regulations have to be based on some kind of compelling rationale, not simply some elitist opinion.”

I believe that this is a stronger legal case than the “necessity” argument, which takes a line from the Legislature to prove, and, due to the listed status of condors, is going to be pretty easy to show.

However, your comment goes to the “arbitrary and capricious” argument, stemming from our right to substantive as well as procedural due process. The government can’t, willy-nilly, restrict our actions; it must prove cause.

As for the science around lead in condors, I think the study samples will always be too small for scientists, but managers still have to make management decisions, and uncomfortably small sample sizes are the nature of endangered species management. I would LOVE to see the NRA and CRPA help fund studies of the effects of other pollution on condors and in habitat, in general – perhaps a dollar-for-dollar match between them and CBD? That way, it won’t look like they are just trying to throw up road blocks (which they are). One place where the science can really help is in understanding foraging habits of condors vis a vis shot small game. My biggest concern is over varmint hunters leaving ground squirrel carcasses, as I’d expect tree squirrels and rabbits to be eaten. But, a lot of guys plink ground squirrels – do condors then eat ‘em?

A couple of other key points…

Even given that many hunters don’t spend hours and hundreds of rounds at the range per season, the argument that “it only takes one bullet” falls apart when it comes to small game or varmints. It’s not at all unusual for a ground squirrel shoot to run through hundreds of rounds in a single day.

Of course, folks like commissioners Sutton and Rogers who pretend to be knowledgeable hunters should know this… but it’s pretty obvious that they’re as clueless as the animal rights folks who spoke. This doesn’t seem to stop them from pushing for policy based on their poorly informed opinions, of course.

Another point…

The entire discussion about the regulation changes hinges on small game, which are generally hunted with rimfires and shotguns. Certainly, there are plenty of non-toxic shotgun loads available, but for rimfire shooters, the list of available options is extremely limited. Despite the ridiculous insistence by Commissioner Rogers and some others that “.22 non-lead ammo is readily available”, the facts are quite different.

True enough, two manufacturers now make .22 magnum ammo with non-lead bullets (although general availability is still limited, as anyone who has tried to order it has found), but there is absolutely nothing available for the far more common .22 long-rifle.

Herb Bauer, owner of one of the largest sporting goods stores in the condor zone, spoke to this during the public comment period, saying that he has yet to recieve ANY .22LR non-lead ammo at his store. Which, of course, would make sense since none is available for anyone… even gun and hunting writers.

I recently contacted my own source for Winchester ammo (I’ve been waiting for a test batch of non-lead .22LR) and was told that release has been delayed until at least late August… and that’s just to get review samples. You can count on several more months after that before the ammo might truly be “readily available”.

As of right now, I have yet to hear so much as a solid rumor about the release of non-lead versions of .17 rimfire ammo (HMR, Mach2, etc.), another wildly popular small game and varmint caliber.

And that’s not all…