Since I responded on your “Manifesto Page” thought I’d copy my thought to this open “Blog”

Interesting perspective…but akin to the current religion of “Man Induced Global Warming” that has the average individual wondering if any scientific study can be believed…it is based in good intentions rather than emphirical evidence and common sense.

Since I am both affluent enough and educated in environment matters…it really doesn’t effect me. I will either pay the additional amount for the alloy ammo and end up wounding more game (due to the differences in ballastics) or hunt out of state (or country).

Since this ban on lead ammo started with the idea of protecting the California Condor…hopefully a suggestion I made years ago about recognizing the symbiotic relationship between the Condor and the Grizzley Bear will be followed up. The vision of some my fellow Californians running into a full grown Grizzley while out on their Sierra Club hike brings a the same warm glow to my heart as does when I read about one of them running into a protected Mountain Lion or Great White.

If “we” are truly worried about our “impacts” on the environment…then we will start paying attention to the root of the problem (Octomoms and over population) and stop bothering one another over symptoms (everything else).

All my best…

As to the risks caused by switching,I simply can’t see it. The same company (Winchester and Nosler) makes my Etips that made the Accubonds I shot before. Barnes has been in business for over 20 years, and over that time has drawn in a large base of shooters… not because they are “green”, but because they are great bullets.

By the way, I’ve had very good results on small, thin-skinned game with both the Barnes bullets and the Nosler ETips (my current preference for deer-sized animals is the ETip). They are both very accurate and quite deadly.

What’s an even bigger issue is the availability… if you don’t shoot .30 caliber, 7mm (270, 7mag, etc.), or 6mm (.243, etc), it’s pretty tough to find a factory-loaded round. Handloaders have more options with the Barnes bullets, but are still limited on other options (Nosler, Hornady, etc). Some people would just say, “take up reloading”, but that’s simply not a realistic opion for many hunters.

These are two of the best arguments against a lead ammo ban, although there are a lot of folks who’d like to trivialize them. Usually, these are people who don’t really know anything about hunting or guns, and don’t understand the complications that go into providing for the wide spectrum of calibers and chamberings that are in the field. They don’t know any better, so it’s up to us to help educate them… with facts, not rhetoric.

Steveb, please DO resist a lead ammo ban. Do it openly and loudly, and enlist as much help as you can. The biggest problem that we are facing is that hunters are NOT stepping up and taking an active role in the defense of our sport. (This is the main reason we got stuck with the ban in CA.) We’re not a politically powerful community, despite the NRA, and we have to take responsibility for our own future. That means getting active on an individual level. Don’t wait for someone else to do it for you.

Blimfark, in the interest of full disclosure, be aware that I don’t really see myself taking up a cause here… unless that cause is to interject common sense into the discourse.

I think that what I’ve done by switching to lead-free ammo was the right thing, but that decision was tempered by several factors… not the least of which was the simple fact that I am in a position to do so. My rifles perform well with lead-free ammo. I can afford it. And I reload my own cartridges, so availability is not an issue. I made my choice based on a personal ethic, and a belief that it was a small thing I could do to minimize my footprint on the ecosystem. If it turns out that lead ammo is not a threat, then I’ve really lost nothing. And if it turns out otherwise, I’m ahead in the game. I am no idealistic altruist.

I’m still extremely angry about the CA lead ammo ban, and if a real, grassroots effort were organized to overturn it, I’d be in the forefront.

That doesn’t mean I don’t care about the condors or the environment. I care a lot. It just means I want to see common-sense solutions, supported by science… not baby-with-the-bathwater approaches like all-out nans on lead bullets.

Regarding the complaints that that you’re “sleeping with the enemy” or that this must be some kind of conspiracy to strip hunters of their weapons… come on, guys! Don’t be against it just because people you don’t like are for it!

Yes, OK, green ammo is more expensive. For now. But there’s a long history of American ingenuity driving down the price of better alternatives (e.g., using citrus-based circuit board wash instead of CFC-based cleaners). And of course there’s always resistance at first. So kudos again to Phillip for blazing the path!

I am not a scientist, nor do I have the means to implement my own research program. What I am doing, is calling for folks to stop knee-jerking and start doing some real research to follow up on some of these allegations and to prove it for once and for all.

As far as the “green bandwagon”… please drop the Limbaughisms. It’s ignorant and counterproductive. Hunters have, for almost a century, declared themselves to be the leaders in conservation. We claim to do more for the environment than any other organization, and in many ways that’s true.

With that in mind, I’d say we ARE the “green bandwagon”. I’d also say that being willing to investigate our impact on the ecosystem, both flora and fauna, is very much in keeping with our claims to be “stewards of the environment”. Even more importantly, we need to be willing to take action based on those results… even if we don’t like what they show us.

There IS evidence of lead turning up in scavengers, and it IS deadly to birds. The unanswered question is where it’s coming from. Until that question is anwered, then there are plenty of folks who will point their fingers at hunters. It’s not ME saying that, it’s just a fact. What I am saying is, instead of spending millions of dollars on a PR campaign to discredit the current research, it would be far more valuable and socially redeeming to spend that money on research to disprove the argument… or to prove it is the problem, and to come up with an appropriate solution. I don’t know how many more ways I can say this. If we don’t do it for ourselves, someone else will do it for us… and that someone else will NOT have hunters’ best interests in mind.

I’m on no campaign, Jerry, unless it’s a campaign to break through the bullshit “us or them” mentality that’s so prevalent throughout this country. I’m sick of people who think that anyone who holds a different idea is somehow the enemy. I’m not sure when this society became so frickin’ polarized, but it’s idiotic and self-destructive. This conflict in our own, hunting community, is a perfect example of the larger problem.

Everything I’ve had to say on the lead ammo issue is included in the pages of this blog. If you want to read it, and have the ability to comprehend it, then decide for yourself what “campaign” I’m on.

The SeasonShot guys have been around for a while now, but while the site seems real, I don’t think this is something you’ll ever see on the market. An intriguing idea, but a joke nonetheless.

Steve, a couple quick points besides thanking you for your post. First, we’re in general agreement about lead ammo as a human health risk. There are some good questions being raised, and all I’m saying is that it makes sense to listen and get the answers.

As far as the NRA, I’m a life member as well. I totally support the overarching mission, but I do retain the right to criticise their methods. The organization has marginalized itself in the public eye, and even with gun owners and shooters. I’ve a list of grievances as long as my arm with the organization, but at this time, there’s no one else doing as much as they do to protect our right to bear arms. For that reason, I continue to support them. As members, it is our responsibility to speak up to the organization and tell them what we think. Otherwise, they don’t represent us at all, do they?